Why the Ground Zero Mosque is Counterproductive to the Islamist Cause

The people who attacked the World Trade Center were moslems. Had they been Irish Catholics, would you protest the erection of a Catholic church? To condemn all Catholics for what a few Catholics have done is ludicrous. It is a logical fallacy called guilt by association.

How are they being insensitive? They are Americans wanting to build a house of worship in their own country. I suggest that some Americans know better than to criticize this and are being intentionally dense.

IF the Mosque is to be built,

It SHOULD be done with American Muslim Money, and ANY AMERICAN's Money.

NOT with any BIG Money from a Foreign Entity.

And DEFINITELY NOT Wahabbi Saudi Money.

The suicide-Murderers were Saudi and they were Wahabbi

IF this American Mosque is to be Built, let it be built with American subscriptions ONLY.

If it were to be built with Saudi Wahabbi Money,

the Clerics and the Mosque will be Controlled by the Saud Family.

****

ANSWER this Question for Yourselves:

WHAT do we WANT in OUR COUNTRY, our Blessed America (?);

Peaceful Islam, YES.

Wahabbi Fanatic Islam, NO!

How many times must it be said: they are not building a mosque! Have your read the description of the Cordoba House project, as this "mosque" is known?

This proposed project is about promoting integration, tolerance of difference and community cohesion through arts and culture. Cordoba House will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their backgrounds, will find a center of learning, art and culture; and most importantly, a center guided by Islamic values in their truest form - compassion, generosity, and respect for all.

The site will contain tremendous amounts of resources that otherwise would not exist in Lower Manhattan; a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, art exhibition spaces, bookstores, restaurants - all these services would form a cultural nexus for a region of New York City that, as it continues to grow, requires the sort of hub that Cordoba House will provide.

Julie Clawson, a regular contributor to Jim Wallis' Christian blog Sojourners, provided a much more eloquent perspective: Forgiveness, Fear, and the Mosque at Ground Zero.

The people who attacked the World Trade Center were moslems. Had they been Irish Catholics, would you protest the erection of a Catholic church?

with out blinking yes

and the socalled community center is called the cordoba initiative. any body who knows any thing about history knows that this is a reference to the time that islam conquered christian spain and ruled over it. they admit to it on their web site.. but of course in a really positive way because islamic theocracies which conquer and subjugate other religions are in their radical opinion the ideal

a person would have to be pretty thick to miss the reference

It wasn't just Americans or Christians that lost their lives that day.

Sure. Those hijackers were neither Americans, nor Christians. They were Muslims and murdered people in the name of Islam.

But there were Muslims working in the World Trade Towers, and they died as well. Christians murder as well but that doesn't speak for all Christians. Anna-NYC, you are that Israel-firster that comes on these boards and spews Israel-first propaganda.

Do Jews like Bernie Madoff and all the other greedy, corrupt, money-grubbing Wall Street/Banking crooks speak for all Jews?

There you go again, insinuating that all of Islam is responsible for the acts of a few. Flawed reasoning.

MUSLIMS that ALSO died

Yes they are very proficient at killing their own. The belief being that they become martyrs and go directly to heaven. I am not making this up, this is what they believe.

Then again, there are honor killing, throwing bombs into the mosques of sects with which they disagree. Shiites and Sunnis blowing each other up in Iraq. A day doesn't go by where there isn't a bombing in Pakistan, etc, etc

Theirs is a culture of death, we celebrate life.

For how many years were Christians killing Christians in Ireland ON A DAILY BASIS ? They were quite proficient killing their own as well AND these weren't attacks against foreign countries, these were quite literally cousin against cousin, brother against brother. And I'm not making it up, they believed what they were doing was completely right and justified.

As far as the middle east, between the predominantly Christian people of Great Britain and America, there is about 200 years of us, messing with their governments by toppling their leaders for someone we preferred at that moment, arming various groups and countries to the teeth and we supported and encouraged their killing of each other, we exploited their people and resources, and treated people of the entire region like they were a sub-human disposable species. Is it really any wonder that they got pissed off enough for some to strike back? Let's be real and honest about it.

I was working at an American military contractor during the Iran-Iraq war, America had armed both sides with major weapon systems, state of the art laser rangefinders on M60 tanks, portable missile systems, night vision targeting devices, etc. The military division in this New Hampshire facility was downright giddy that the weapon systems that they had made and installed on both sides were finally getting a good real life workout. It was all about contracts, money and zero regard for any lives.

To propose we are somehow better because unlike us mostly Christian people here, "they kill their own". What a huge load of hypocritical crap. The USA is a one of the major players in enabling countries all over the world to be proficient in killing whatever they choose.

Perhaps we should brag that "while they are proficient killing their own, we are proficient helping anyone with the enough money (even if it's our own tax dollars being spent) to kill anyone they want". And we don't limit it to honor killing, tribal killings or anything else, we promote it solely for the money we can make off it like that is somehow superior a reason.

Yup he writes sarcastically, Christianity is on a higher spiritual plane in our celebration of money over life - as ours is a culture of selling very efficient tools of death.

Then again, there are honor killing, throwing bombs into the mosques of sects with which they disagree. Shiites and Sunnis blowing each other up in Iraq. A day doesn't go by where there isn't a bombing in Pakistan, etc, etc

How does that involve the community center to be build in NY?
None of those people building it have anything to do with anything you mentioned.

But there were Muslims working in the World Trade Towers, and they died as well.

like anna said muslims kill other muslims all the time.. the majority of the victims of islamic terrorism are muslims. this is because the hardcore muslims view the moderates as blasphemers or apostates not as real muslims therefore as valid targets just like unbelievers or worse than unbelievers.

Yes, and the suicide bombers in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, The Phillipines and virtually any place they choose kill many more fellow Muslims than they do Jews, Christians and Americans. From very early childhood on the ones educated (ie-filled with hate filled propoganda) in madrassas both in the US and their native lands are taught to conquer, convert or kill Infidels, meaning anyone except good Muslims, but if they take out a few hundred thousand of their fellow muslim cultists who cares, it is all in a good cause. Besides, when they tally up the death tolls just add a couple of zeros to the end and blame it on the satanic Americans. That will give Al-jazeera more lies to present as facts.

6 Americans on medical mission killed in Afghanistan

German, Briton and two Afghans also slain in Taliban ambush on Christian charity workers

There you go again, insinuating that all of Islam is responsible for the acts of a few

What about the Palestinians and other Muslims seen dancing in the streets and passing out candy after hearing about the 9/11 attacks?

They paid cash for the building they want to demolish for this (......... ......) about a year ago, and now they have 200 Million in cash, I think the FBI should be investigating where they got this cash.

Black gold, Texas Tea. Oil! Saudia Arabia is the number ONE sponsor and funder of terrorism in the world, yet the USA is good business partners with them, as we are Communist China. Yet we attack Iraq who was no threat, none of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis, they were all Saudis except for one or two.

We are fed so many lies and so much bull crap every day about all this.

No one is defending a backward, thirteenth century religion (much less Catholicism.) I do defend their first amendment right of freedom of religion. I'm sorry if that offends anyone. It's an American thing.

I'm sure the FBI is grateful for the information.

We are not talking about 1st amendment rights, we are talking about intent.

How is the proposal do deny a building permit based on the religion of the applicants not a 1st Amendment issue?

redphish, it's because they think 1st Amendment only applies to THEIR religious freedom. If it was a church being denied a permit, they would be foaming at the mouth.

If it was a church being denied a permit, they would be foaming at the mouth.

But churches are denied permits all the time. If it were a church or synagogue, they would simply put it somewhere else.

If they were denied the right to build in a certain area just because they were specifically a Church or Synagogue, then that is religious discrimination as well.

Using one example of discrimination to justify another is flawed logic.

Right, because a few extremists means that a whole religious group should be denied the right to build a house of worship in the US, a country of religious freedom. I mean, all Muslims are terrorists, amirite?

And there are fanatics in every religion (even Christianity!). So I guess you don't think we should allow the building of anything that has to do with religion? That means no more churches y'know!

A few extremists? More like millions. I would like to believe that all Muslims are great human beings. But I never hear or see enough outrage coming from the Muslim community either here or abroad at the carnage being left behind from Muslim extremists. When I witness that reaction to the mass killings carried out by Muslim extremists then I'll change my point of view.

realstr8:

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_2/

http://www.changethestory.net/?q=content/muslims-denounce-terrorism

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

These may help. There are many, many more sites if you just google "American Muslims denounce terrorism."

Every religion has plenty of crazies; but you can't ASSUME all its' believers are just as insane as the extremists. Just look at the Westboro church; I'm sure Christians country-wide wouldn't want to be called a soldier hater and a traitor to their country...but that's exactly what you're doing to American Muslims when you associate Muslim with terrorist.

I want to see streaming images across the airwaves of demonstrations being held in the streets of every major US city. It's important for me and other US citizens see these images constantly so that we form a different opinion. The Westboro Church has nowhere near the numbers, sophistication, and the money that extremist groups have. Your comparing a world movement to a national one.

Why should we have to keep defending Islam. I am sooooo tired of having to apologize for crimes committed in the name of Islam. By the way, where are the thousands of Christians out on the streets condemning the atrocities being committed against the Iraq and Afganistan civilians? When Timothy McVay bomb the federal building did everyone call a halt to the building of any new churches? Of course not he was just a misguided fanatic. I personally do not agree with Sufism or the Saudi's version of Islam. What everyone should realize is NO American bank will loan money to a Islamic institution with out at least charging a high interest rate and what you may not know is that interest is not allowed in Islam. It is considered one of the great sins. So if ant one want to build renovate or expand the have to find the money some how and just because they recieve the money from the Saudi's it does not mean that they will bee beholden to them.

I am sooooo tired of having to apologize for crimes committed in the name of Islam.

No one is asking you to. The group that wants to build the community center has nothing to do with those crimes.

Jack,

The group that wants to build the community center has nothing to do with those crimes.

No they don't, and in fact they have a constitutional right to do so. But what is at the heart of this matter is whether it makes the community at large ( that would be fellow New Yorkers) comfortable and it doesn't. If you want to be a good neighbor, you should try and be sensitive to the needs of the community at large.

But what is at the heart of this matter is whether it makes the community at large ( that would be fellow New Yorkers) comfortable and it doesn't.

And African Americans have their civil rights made a lot of people uncomfortable. The freedom of others will always make some uncomfortable. They need to get over it.

I want to see streaming images across the airwaves of demonstrations being held in the streets of every major US city. It's important for me and other US citizens see these images constantly so that we form a different opinion. The Westboro Church has nowhere near the numbers, sophistication, and the money that extremist groups have. Your comparing a world movement to a national one.

You actually think its' widely publicized like it should be??

If that's one thing I'm ashamed of when it comes to the media, it's that propaganda rules it.

I've shown you several instances where even the leaders in Islam and other Muslim leaders have condemned their actions; leaders that lead thousands.

Our media doesn't show that because it would mean the "American people" would throw a temper tantrum, and they would get alot of negative reactions to it...companies avoid this at all costs; they don't want to take risks like that. Either that, or these people are bigoted and refuse to show what's really happening because of their prejudice.

You want to be bombarded by Muslims screaming in the streets, protesting 9/11...I want christians bombarding the streets, condemning hypocrisy, corruption and prejudice that is running rampant throughout their own religion.

Is that ever going to happen? Probably not. But it doesn't mean I think ALL christians are evil just because they won't protest every day.

Again, you're associating extremist with Muslim.

Extremists are everywhere, in every religion, in every race, in every nationality...so of course they'll outnumber the Westboro church...but that doesn't mean anything. (Technically, they're part of the same group)

We should be fighting intolerance, and not becoming intolerant in the process of fighting our "enemy in Islam."

Should the Bosnians fly the Serbian flag next to Srebrenica; should the Kosovars fly the Serbian flag next to the mass graves where their people were exterminated? Should Armenian's fly the Turkish flag or allow the building of mosques next to the mass graves where their people were exterminated by Turkish Muslims?

Apples and oranges: you mention different national groups; the people who want to put up the community center are US citizens.

And African Americans have their civil rights made a lot of people uncomfortable.

No they don't. They have the same civil rights as white American that they fought hard to get, and rightfully so. So do Muslims. This has nothing to do with civil rights. There is no doubt in any New Yorkers mind that they have the right to build this center. But they also have to realize that just because you have the right, doesn't make it right. This City works because we try to understand each other's needs. If the majority of the city finds it offensive, then it would behoove them to take these feelings into account, that is if they really care.

try and understand the analogy of diff ethnic groups and diff religious groups

This has nothing to do with civil rights.

Nonsense: it has everything to do with civil rights.
An Islamic groups wants to build a community center and some bigots dont want it built. Those bigots are trying to drum up opposition among the people of New York.
Its exactly the same thing as when African Americans were fighting for their civil rights.

But they also have to realize that just because you have the right, doesn't make it right.

Only in the minds of the intolerant.

This has nothing to do with civil rights.

It has EVERYTHING to do with civil rights.

Just look at the issues we're having with gay rights right now; they are protected by civil rights laws to be able to marry and be treated equal- yet people find it "offensive" what gay people do in their bedrooms, so that somehow gives them authority to take away homosexuals' rights.

It's the same situation; it's discrimination.

And if all of you don't see that, you're as blind and closed-minded as the terrorists were.

Are you choosing to miss my point. They have the civil right to build the mosque and they know that they do and are choosing to build it, so there is no need to feel that their right has been infringed upon. This differs from blacks, as they had no civil rights in the 50's and 60's, gays who can't get married.

BTW for the record, Muslims don't support gay marriage....no problem with that?

This is about the sensitivities on New Yorkers about a specific event at a specific site. We don't protest over every mosque. Just this one.

Anathema6205 you are right... some people find interracial marriages or relationships offensive. Should biracial couples break up because they might offend someone?

Some find the community center in bad taste or offensive. Fine; no one is forcing them to go there.

Perrie its not a mosque its a community center.

BTW for the record, Muslims don't support gay marriage....no problem with that?

You know for a fact none do? There are a lot of Christians who dont approve either.

Either way its not up to them to approve or not approve; just like its not up to you to approve of a community center which is legally being built.

This is about the sensitivities on New Yorkers about a specific event at a specific site.

No its about civil rights of a group which is not popular to some.

I have yet to hear of a legitimate reason it should not be there. All I have read here is people religious intolerance coming out.

BTW for the record, Muslims don't support gay marriage....no problem with that?

I wonder if you have a list of Islamic organizations which are protesting the judges decision in California. All I have seen is Christian groups protesting that one.

Jack,

It is a mosque and a community center.

You know for a fact none do? There are a lot of Christians who dont approve either.

Here is a better one. Not only do they not approve of gay marriage, they don't approve being gay.

http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

And it is true that many Christians don't approve either, usually it is in context of marriage.

Either way its not up to them to approve or not approve; just like its not up to you to approve of a community center which is legally being built.

Wrong. It is my civil right to approve or not, but it is not my civil right to brake the Constitution, which is why my stance on this whole issue is that they have the right to build it, but... if you care about how your fellow New Yorkers feel, maybe that isn't such a good spot.

No its about civil rights of a group which is not popular to some.

Wrong again. The law is on their side and they are building it. How are their civil rights being infringed upon?

You know, at this point, this is just going around in circle. There is no point to any further conversation.

Have a good one.

Wrong. It is my civil right to approve or not, but it is not my civil right to brake the Constitution, which is why my stance on this whole issue is that they have the right to build it, but... if you care about how your fellow New Yorkers feel, maybe that isn't such a good spot.

It's not a civil right to approve or not, it's your freedom of speech that allows you to disapprove.

By telling them to build somewhere else, you are pushing your views on them.

You are treating them as if they were terrorists or somehow supported terrorists, when in reality, they are our countrymen, and should be treated no differently than any other religious group.

Here is a better one. Not only do they not approve of gay marriage, they don't approve being gay.

Well duh; both religions come from the same roots; but it doesn't mean our separation of church and state changes for Muslims OR Christians; they can't deny gay marriage based on moral grounds, because it infringes on civil rights.

Wrong again. The law is on their side and they are building it. How are their civil rights being infringed upon?

By saying "it's insensitive," your suggesting they build elsewhere, when they have every wish to build there....that's commonly known as bullying.

Our constitution was built to protect the minority from injustices...and that's exactly what these people are protected by.

Yes, they're legally correct, and yes, they are morally correct.

THEY ARE NOT TERRORISTS. THEY DO NOT CONDONE TERRORISM.

WE SHOULD NOT BRAND THEM EVIL BECAUSE THEY SHARE THE SAME RELIGION WITH EXTREMISTS.

Anathema6205,

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I NEVER SAID THEY WERE TERRORISTS, OR THAT THEY CONDONED TERRORISM.

You apparently don't understand the subtly of what I am trying to say. I am done.

It's not a civil right to approve or not, it's your freedom of speech that allows you to disapprove.

Wrong. It's called freedom of speech. They have the civil right to put up the mosque and I have the civil right to express my displeasure.

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

if you care about how your fellow New Yorkers feel, maybe that isn't such a good spot.

This is about the sensitivities on New Yorkers about a specific event at a specific site. We don't protest over every mosque. Just this one.

I'm not. You consider it offensive. That's your right to think so and vocalize that, as you are protected under your right to freedom of speech...but freedom of speech only states that you can express your views WITHOUT harming others or infringing on their civil rights and freedom of religion.

In case you haven't noticed, that's what you're doing by telling them its' "insensitive" to build there.

You apparently don't understand the subtly of what I am trying to say. I am done.

I understand completely, you're just not listening. Way to bail out and FAIL.

Why come on the vine when all you're going to do is throw in an opinion without staying to defend it?

Wrong. It's called freedom of speech.

Uhh...That's what I said. Civil rights and the freedom of speech clause are two different laws...

They have the civil right to put up the mosque and I have the civil right to express my displeasure.

You can express it all you want, but when you push that view into restricting their right to build there, that's where your freedom of speech ends.

I NEVER SAID THEY WERE TERRORISTS, OR THAT THEY CONDONED TERRORISM.

Damn vine, and not allowing changes...I forgot to add this:

If you do not feel they aren't condoning terrorism, then why are you so insulted by a community center there with nothing but a room for prayer??

Why do you find it offensive for them to be two blocks away from the 9/11 incident?

You can express it all you want, but when you push that view into restricting their right to build there, that's where your freedom of speech ends.

How am I doing that? How are they being restricted? Are they not putting up the mosque? This is baiting and I am done.

How am I doing that? How are they being restricted? Are they not putting up the mosque? This is baiting and I am done.

lol, just because you have the right to feel insulted doesn't make you right in feeling that way.

That's what everyones' been trying to say.

Your prejudice shows through that thin veil of indignation.

Your prejudice shows through that thin veil of indignation.

Yawn. So you say.....

Have a good one.

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. I NEVER SAID THEY WERE TERRORISTS, OR THAT THEY CONDONED TERRORISM.

Then you should have no real objection to the community center being built.
Any objection would then be based solely on their religion...and you know what that says.

And African Americans have their civil rights made a lot of people uncomfortable. The freedom of others will always make some uncomfortable. They need to get over it.

That is an absolutely absurd analogy. There are mosques everywhere; there's one in my own neighborhood, which I have personally visited. The Civil Rights movement wasn't over one incident in one place, it was about the way African Americans were being treated all over the entire South, and to some extent in other regions as well. You do understand that there are Muslims opposed to putting the mosque there, too, don't you? It's simply insensitive. Since 9/11 was all about sectarian violence, it would probably be a very bad idea to build ANY particular house of worship near Ground Zero. An interfaith center, maybe.

I'm not. You consider it offensive. That's your right to think so and vocalize that, as you are protected under your right to freedom of speech...but freedom of speech only states that you can express your views WITHOUT harming others or infringing on their civil rights and freedom of religion.

In case you haven't noticed, that's what you're doing by telling them its' "insensitive" to build there.

oh what a load of crap.

nobodys rites are infringed on by some body expressing their disagreement

and all over the usa all the time zoning boards and neighbors give the thumbs up and thumbs down to buildings being built or torn down or even changed

so nobody is infringing on any bodys rites

claiming that every body is a bigot who believes its insensitive to slap up a mosque only about four buildings away from a place where thousands of people were killed by muslim terrorists is simply a dishonest and cowardly smear tactic

after all there are more than a few muslims protesting this as well.. I guess according to brite bulbs like you they are what.. self hating??

an interfaith center that respects all religions all cultures all nations that lost their loved ones that terrible day to religious intolerance is better than a center and a religious building that is religiously exclusive and divisive instead of one which embraces every one

ask your selves why the cordoba initiative insists upon building their mosque rite there.. and take some time to understand what that name refers to.. the muslim conquest of christian spain and the establishment of an islamic caliphate in which non muslims are second class citizens if at all.. who are the real bigots?? there is no good reason so build this mosque only bad ones

Since 9/11 was all about sectarian violence,

Wrong: it was about a group of terrorists attacking the US.

Since 9/11 was all about sectarian violence,

Wrong: it was about a group of terrorists attacking the US.

Are you saying it was NOT sectarian violence? When Muslims attack Hindus (or vice versa) in India, that is also a group of terrorists, in this case attacking India, but don't you call that sectarian violence?

1: It's NOT a MOSQUE. It's a community center with one room for prayer. These people are merely relocating for space purposes!

2: It's hard as hell getting decent land over there, so they had to build over an old Burlington. It would be an inconvenience to the people already going to the previous structure. That's why they're building it relatively close to the old one.

3: YES, their freedom of religion is being violated if the rest of America insists on keeping them from building there.

4: Hey, Oom; I agree an inter-religious structure would be great; or how about we make a whole block full of different religious structures? The center for religious tolerance! It's already been suggested; why don't you get groups of several religious groups to buy up land and start construction?

I'm sure everyone would be up for that.

claiming that every body is a bigot who believes its insensitive to slap up a mosque only about four buildings away from a place where thousands of people were killed by muslim terrorists is simply a dishonest and cowardly smear tactic

When you separate Muslim from terrorist, you will understand why you are being labeled a bigot. Until then, keep the name-calling out of the vine please.

There are terrorists of all cultures and races; that doesn't make the majority of Muslims violent or prejudiced.

1: It's NOT a MOSQUE. It's a community center with one room for prayer. These people are merely relocating for space purposes!

you don't know what you're talking about or you're peddling misinformation which is it?

Daisy Khan, executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement and Cordoba Initiative board member, said the project has received little opposition.

"Whatever concerns anybody has, we have to make sure to educate them that we are an asset to the community," Khan said.

Khan said her group hopes construction on the project will begin by the 10th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks.

Once built, 1,000 to 2,000 Muslims are expected to pray at the mosque every Friday, she said.

link

read that until you understand what it says. Khan clearly states that there will be a MOSQUE

2: It's hard as hell getting decent land over there, so they had to build over an old Burlington.

they said they bought it specifically because it was so close to ground zero and because it had been hit by wreckage

The location was precisely a key selling point for the group of Muslims who bought the building in July. A presence so close to the World Trade Center, “where a piece of the wreckage fell,” said Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the cleric leading the project, “sends the opposite statement to what happened on 9/11.”

link

3: YES, their freedom of religion is being violated if the rest of America insists on keeping them from building there.

bs zoning boards can and do disallow buildings of all kinds even religious buildings if they decide to it does not violate their freedom of religion.. you have no rite to any specific spot to slap up your house of worship

nobody is saying all muslims are terrorist. that is what you are claiming other people are saying but we're not.

if thousands of people were killed by clowns I would object to a clown school rite near the site. and in no way would that objection mean that I equate clowns with terrorists. it just means that it is HIGHLY INSENSITIVE to slap up a @!$%#ing clown school rite near a site where clowns murdered thousands of innocent people

understand THAT?

These people are merely relocating for space purposes!

You honestly believe this?

I wonder if you have a list of Islamic organizations which are protesting the judges decision in California. All I have seen is Christian groups protesting that one.

Surely you are joking! Even liberal Muslims are totally opposed to homosexuality, period, let alone gay marriage. Have you ever actually even KNOWN a Muslim? I've just lived with Muslims and befriended many. I could give you a transliterated version of a few of their derogatory names for gays, often used as general curse words, but there's no point.

When Timothy McVay bomb the federal building did everyone call a halt to the building of any new churches?

Timothy McVay never claimed to be a Christian, let alone to be acting on behalf of Christianity. He was upset about Waco and Ruby Ridge, not about any threats to his religion. In fact, I believe he said he was agnostic.

Surely you are joking!

Then you must be able to easily find a lot of sources of different groups to back your claims

read that until you understand what it says. Khan clearly states that there will be a MOSQUE

Note that it also is open to everyone, has a basketball court, has a stage and a swimming pool...hmm...sounds alot like a community center to me.

When was the last time you went to a church that had a swimming pool in it that was considered ONLY a church??

'Cuz I've NEVER seen one like that, and I've been to many, many churches.

But a community center with a religious purpose? Why yes, I've seen that! It's called the YMCA.

He said the glass-and-steel building would include a 500-seat performing arts venue, a swimming pool and a basketball court. "There's nothing like it," said Rauf, adding that facilities will be open to all New Yorkers.

Here's another piece that all of you are purposefully ignoring:

Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf, who helped found the Cordoba Initiative following the 9/11 attacks, said the project is intended to foster better relations between the West and Muslims.

If Muslims are forced to continually hide in the shadows, away from "real Americans" views, our relations will NEVER heal. This man is seeking to bury the hatchet- we now have to step up like adults and offer our hand in friendship in return. We can't keep throwing temper tantrums and blaming the WRONG people for what happened.

Everyone opposing this is only advocating prejudice and hatred against our own countrymen.

Then you must be able to easily find a lot of sources of different groups to back your claims

Well, here's one:

http://www.islam101.com/sociology/homosexuality.html

Next you'll be asking for me to provide "sources" to prove the world is round. This is ridiculous. Muslims are who are they are, not who you imagine them to be or want them to be. You're guilty of the George W. Bush delusion that they are just like us. Don't you remember when the leader of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, stated in a speech to Americans that there were no homosexuals in his country? (This could actually be true; it's a capital offense to be one, so maybe he killed them all.)

Consider getting off line sometime and reading an actual newspaper or book.

So they officially say its wrong: so do most Christian Churches. I see Christian groups protesting equal rights for Gays, but I have never seen an Islamic group, in the US, do so.

This isn't about Iran it is about the US
Try again.

Nice find though: here is more from your source:

Islam is a religion which teaches non-violence. According to the Qur’an, God does not love fasad, violence. What is meant here by fasad is clearly expressed in verse 205 of the second Surah. Basically, fasad is that action which results in disruption of the social system, causing huge losses in terms of lives and property.

Conversely, we can say with certainty that God loves non-violence. He abhors violent activity being indulged in human society, as a result of which people have to pay the price with their possessions and lives. This is supported by other statements in the Qur’an. For instance, we are told in the Qur’an that peace is one of God’s names (59:23). Those who seek to please God are assured by verse 5 of the sixteenth surah that they will be guided by Him to "the paths of peace." Paradise, which is the final destination of the society of God’s choice, is referred to in the Qur’an as "the home of peace" (89:30), etc.

The entire spirit of the Qur’an is in consonance with this concept. For instance, the Qur’an attaches great importance to patience. In fact, patience is set above all other Islamic virtues with the exceptional promise of reward beyond measure. (39:10)

Patience implies a peaceful response or reaction, whereas impatience implies a violent response. The word Sabr exactly expresses the notion of non-violence as it is understood in modern times. That patient action is non-violent action has been clearly expressed in the Qur’an. According to one tradition, the Prophet of Islam observed: God grants to rifq (gentleness) what he does not grant to unf (violence). (Sunan, Abu Dawood, 4/255)

http://islam101.net/human-relations-mainmenu-27/37-terrorism/264-non-violence-and-islam.html

So from your source we can see that the idea of a community center which promotes peace is a great idea. Thank you!

This one's interesting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/23/AR2006062301417.html

This one's interesting.

Sad and depressing is more like it.

These poor people have to hide who they are because of intolerance.

Which was exactly my point.

This one's interesting.

Yes but it does not refute what I have posted.

Obviously it does, if grown men are so afraid of what their parents and their community would think.

Going back to post 8.18 I said

I wonder if you have a list of Islamic organizations which are protesting the judges decision in California. All I have seen is Christian groups protesting that one.

You have yet to prove any US Islamic organizations are protesting the
Judges decision.

Few people of any faith are actively protesting MOST things they dislike as once you are an adult and have a job and family, you really don't have the time. But as for how Muslims feel about gay marriage, sheesh, did you only recently arrive on this planet?

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503548496

That's odd; a lot of right wing Christian groups are finding time to do just that.

Finally, a moderate Muslim speaks out against this Mosque.

http://commonamericanjournal.com/?p=17599

Her name is Raheel Raza and she is a board member of Muslim Canadian Congress.

I must credit lisaed for this find.

Perrie,

thanks for bringing this out for us to see, and thanks to lisaed.

NOW, is the time for the "MODERATE" Muslims to SPEAK, finally,

against this "Ground Zero Mosque",

which IS, at the very least, a Great INSENSITIVITY,

A Canadian Muslim, Ms Raheel Raza,

speaks FOR the Majority Of Moderate Canadian Muslims who UNDERSTAND this INSENSITIVITY.

NOW, Let us SEE the GREAT MAJORITY of American Muslims, STAND AGAINST this INSENSITIVITY.

****

100 Million Saudi Wahabbi Dollars, $100,000,000, to BUY the Construction of this MEGA-Mosque,

which, IF BUILT, will be a symbol to the World, and a symbol to the Muslim World,

of a VICTORY,

because, NO Matter how you try and explain it, or slant it, or pitch it,

the ACTUAL FACT, would be,

9-11-2001, the American World Trade Center Buildings were brought DOWN,

by Suadi Wahabbi Terrorists,

and ten years later,

the Saudi MASTERS, the Wahabbi LEADERS, the King of those Wahabbi Terrorists,

are giving $100,000,000, ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS,

TO Build THIS Mosque, which WILL be a SYMBOL of what the GREAT WAHABBI's can DO!!!

1) Bring down OUR BUILDINGS, with their Terrorists

and THEN,

2) Construct THEIR BUILDING, with their Money.

****

NO!!!!!

SAUDI WAHABBI MONEY for THIS PROJECT, would be

THEIR Expensive BEAUTIFUL Mosque,

ARISING from the ashes of OUR BEAUTIFUL, World Trade Center BUILDINGS,

WHICH, the World Knows, and the Muslim World KNOWS,

that THEIR people, Saudi Wahabbi's,

DESTROYED OUR BUILDINGS, and Murdered OUR People.

****

THIS Mosque, IF BUILT, would indeed symbolize a VICORY, to the Wahabbi's.

Finally, a moderate Muslim speaks out against this Mosque.

Why is that a good thing? She is not even a US citizen.
The irony is that if she had spoken out for the mosque those who are against religious freedom for Muslims would be going nuts.

Good Point!

She, Ms. Raheel Raza, a Canadian Muslim, has SPOKEN AGAINST the INSENSITIVITY of the LOCATION.

NOW,

Let us HEAR the VOICES of the Moderate AMERICAN Muslims SPEAKING AGAINST this INSENSITIVITY.

For $100,000,000, One Hundred MILLION Wahabbi Dollars,

I'll bet the architect Plans for this 15 STORY(so far) TALL, WAHABBI Mosque, at "GOUND ZERO",

WILL BE BEAUTIFUL!!

I'll bet the TOP

of the "Mosque/Community Center",

will have a GORGEOUS DOME, and STRIKING MINARETS,

as well as the BEST WAHABBI Preachers and the BEST WAHABBI Teachers,

WAHABBI money can buy.

****

IF, and I say, IF, the Wahabbi's REALLY wanted to "Make Amends" to us, for what their terrorists did,

then The Wahabbi King and his Wahabbi Family,

INSTEAD of using their Bountiful Amounts of Money, to build a Wahabbi MOSQUE,

these Saudi's SHOULD have given THAT MONEY to REBUILD OUR TRADE TOWERS (!!!!!),

the U.S. TRADE TOWERS, that THEIR WAHABBI Terrorists DESTROYED !!!!

****

"INSENSITIVE", is the NICEST word for their ACTIONS; I can think of OTHER WORDS, less nice.

You know, if you say banana over and over again, it starts to sound like gullible?

I'll say WAHABBI over and over, and it STILL sounds like @!$%#ing murdering TERRORISTS!

and, the WORST PART is, this Wahabbi A$$WIPE Terrorist Assassin CULT, thinks of Americans as IDIOTS.

THESE Wahabbi's Saudi Terrorist MURDERERS, come to OUR Country and DESTROY our TOWERS,

and then, the KING Wahabbi sends 100 million dollars,

to BUILD a Wahabbi Controlled MEGA-Mosque.

"DUH!", is what THEY think that WE are!

That's nice...but the people that are building this community center aren't terrorists.

So you really have no reason to froth at the mouth the way you are.

You're going after the wrong people.

These people are Americans, just like you and me.

And until you have the constitution burned, you will have a hard time trying to keep them from practicing their freedom of religion.

We're not advocating terrorism, and neither are they.

They're not building ON the rubble of the old towers, they're two blocks away.

these Saudi's SHOULD have given THAT MONEY to REBUILD OUR TRADE TOWERS (!!!!!),

First of all, why did you put the exclamation points in parentheses? Are you aware of basic grammatical structure?

Second, they DID offer money in aid for America when 9/11 happened, but we refused it.

Third, it was the will of the people that we did NOT build our towers again, to respect the deads'memory.

So your point is moot on two levels of fact inaccuracy and one on poor grammar skills. (sorry, but I can't read any more of your posts unless you talk like a educated human being, and not like you're going into spasms as you type)

"INSENSITIVE", is the NICEST word for their ACTIONS; I can think of OTHER WORDS, less nice.

Many people consider ANY Muslim being in their country "insensitive." Many people consider a family day at Six Flags for Muslims "insensitive."

When will all of you guys get it through your heads?

These people are our countrymen; why are you segregating them?

You can't label all Muslims as terrorists just because they share a religion with extremists.

Should we paint all catholics as pedophiles and child molesters?

Shall we throw them all in jail without trial because they share a religion with many child molesters?

Should we take away their children and their jobs because they might have contact with children, and might molest them?

Should we banish them to an island with no children whatsoever so as not to "offend" the little children that know what "all Catholics" are capable of?

If you substitute Muslim for any other minority group, it will sounds wrong and prejudiced.

Substitute Muslim(I DO have Muslim friends and associates)

and put in WAHABBI!

I like my Jordanian associate, Mark.

I very much like my Syrian friend, Hassan.

I am totally amused by my Iraqi neighbor, Fawzi.

I am very good friends with My Iranian buddy, Johnny.

ALL of these guys are Muslim.

NONE of these friends and associates ARE WAHABBI.

IF you mean, "am I against Saudi Wahabbi fanatics AND MURDERERS(?)",

then I MUST tell YOU, truthfully, my answer is YES!

Saudi Wahabbi Terrorists, DESTROYED our Toweres, and KILLED our People.

THIS MEGA-Mosque will NOT be FUNDED and OWNED by the Saudi Wahabbi's!

NO Wahabbi MEGA-Mosque at "Ground Zero"!

Okie. You're obviously not listening anymore.

....Dokie. I understand. Obviously.

Yes, what goes around comes around. Which is why all our our meddling, and political coups we instigated in the last 60 years in the middle-east, in Muslim nations, to install governments which would allow the USA and Britain to control the oil and get rich off the oil, which has caused millions of deaths, and millions of refugees, came around and bit us in the butt.

servus,

And that has what to do with this?

But I'll play.

Yes, there has been over 60 years of the world meddling in the ME. But let's remember that the bombing at 9/11 has almost nothing to do with that....no matter what Osama says.

Now let's remember how Osama became so good at what he does. We trained him. Remember that little war that was going on during the Regan administration during the Cold War..... well we helped the Taliban kick out Russia.

So much for gratitude.

So really, we let our fear of the USSR, train a group of questionable terrorists, so that they could take what ever thier rational is now, and use their improved terrorist skills back on us.

Talk about Frankenstein's Monster.

Better yet...if your worried about Iran and nuclear weapons and suppression of the Iranian people, who do you think we have to blame for that. Us. Because of our fear of WMDs we destabilized the whole region because it was Iraq that kept Iran in check.

Yup. I see what you mean.

But let's remember that the bombing at 9/11 has almost nothing to do with that....no matter what Osama says.

Actually, he isn't the only one to say that they were retaliating for the evil the US brought to their region. And oops... it actually (like it or not) has factual legs to stand on. We have ruthlessly exploited those people for their oil and profits.

So really, we let our fear of the USSR, train a group of questionable terrorists...

And that's just one example of our messing with and destroying the lives of innocent people over there, there are dozens and dozens more between the UK and USA crapping all over them for our own selfish agenda. Between the two nations, there's probably 150 years of exploitation, death and destruction by two predominantly Christian nations against that region, at what point would you consider retaliation appropriate?

Retaliation is what we DO,

THEY and WE.

WHAT if we do NOT give into their "THREAT of RETALIATION" (?);

Their threat of a NEW RETALIATION, unless the U.S. CONFORMS to their DEMANDS.

WHAT will we DO, I wonder (?!), if the Wahabbi Fanatics, strike at US aqain(!)

1) Boo Hoo (?)

or,

whatever #2 is (!)

.

servus, exactly right, the USA seems to think that overthrowing an elected government (Iran-1953) will never result in backlash. The truth is that the people of Iran never forgot what we did to them, and how ironic, we did it for BP and the British government. Iran was Britain's main source for oil during WWII. After the war the Iranian people decided that there oil should be nationalized, why should they allow the British to control their most profitable resource. They elected a representative government to accomplish their goal of nationalization. The British were upset, they tried to get other countries around the world on their side, unfortunately for the British the rest of the world agreed with Iran. The British turned to the USA, and since we were their strongest ally, we sent in the CIA. The CIA accomplished their goal, they overthrew the Iranian government and installed the Shah. Now I don't know about the rest of you, but if I was an Iranian citizen I wouldn't hold the government of the USA in high regard.

As far as the 9/11 was concerned, OBL did not like US military bases in Saudi Arabia (infidels in the holy land). After the gulf war we established several military bases in Saudi Arabia. OBL repeatedly warned throughout the 90s that if the US left the bases in SA, he would attack us. Our arrogance led to 9/11, GWB did not take their threats seriously. After all these were just a bunch of rag tag warriors playing war games in Afghanistan, how could they attack the USA. The GWB administration did not hold one meeting about the terrorism threat before the attack, even when warned that OBL was planning an attack. The 9/11 attack may have happened whether GWB had acted when warned or not, but wouldn't most of us have felt better had GWB pulled out all the stops when he was warned. Instead he told the CIA men that delivered the PDB, that they had "covered their asses."

We can continue blaming Muslim terrorists for all the problems, or we can start taking a serious look at ourselves and try to see the reasons that these people hate us.

As far as the 9/11 was concerned, OBL did not like US military bases in Saudi Arabia (infidels in the holy land). After the gulf war we established several military bases in Saudi Arabia. OBL repeatedly warned throughout the 90s that if the US left the bases in SA, he would attack us. Our arrogance led to 9/11, GWB did not take their threats seriously.

Seriously? OBL a terrorist, says that he doesn't want a US presence in Saudi Arabia, but the legitimate Saudi Government does, and we are supposed to listen to OBL?

And while it was true that there was intel that GWB should have listened to, you mean the first attempt on the WTC wasn't enough of a hint?

There is never reason for civilized people to use terrorism on innocent people. Tell me, what was the reason for the Taliban blowing up the oldest Buddha? What did the Buddhist ever do to them?

Didn't the taliban blow up the Buddhas because they were symbols of another religion?

Aren't people opposing the community center because it's a symbol of another religion?

Perrie, I never said we should listen to OBL, I said we should have paid attention to what he was saying. Sorry, but what were we doing in SA, protecting a country that finacially and spiritually supported OBL in the first place. BTW, I guess the first attempt on the WTC wasn't a strong enough hint for GWB to take terrorism seriously.

I notice you didn't reply to our involvement in Iran, what excuse do you give for our participation in the overthrow of their government.

Terrorism is a tactic, usually used by people who are desperate to fight for their cause even though they are out manned and outgunned.

I never said we should surrender to extremism, what I said was that maybe we should try to find out the reasons for the extremism. Then maybe we could try to find a different approach to solving the problem. Trying to kill them all will never work, it's like the old greek tragedy, cut off one head and 10 more heads appear.

Tom and Rickg

Aren't people opposing the community center because it's a symbol of another religion?

No. New Yorkers are opposing it because they feel it is like sending the terrorist who blew up the WTC that they won. There are hundreds of mosques all over NYC and no one has ever bothered them.

BTW, I guess the first attempt on the WTC wasn't a strong enough hint for GWB to take terrorism seriously.

Didn't I say that in my post?

I notice you didn't reply to our involvement in Iran, what excuse do you give for our participation in the overthrow of their government.

I was totally against the war in Iraq. As a matter of fact, I feel that it destableized the area and created the vacuum that allows Iran to build nuclear weapons.

Terrorism is a tactic, usually used by people who are desperate to fight for their cause even though they are out manned and outgunned.

That is just a poor excuse for people with a gripe to kill innocent people.

I never said we should surrender to extremism, what I said was that maybe we should try to find out the reasons for the extremism. Then maybe we could try to find a different approach to solving the problem. Trying to kill them all will never work, it's like the old greek tragedy, cut off one head and 10 more heads appear.

I think it is always important to understand the root cause of any problem. But what I won't do evil acts with a justification.

Perrie, my comment was about IRAN not Iraq, we overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953. Then we wondered why they took our diplomats hostage during the Iranian revolution of 1979. GWB calls Iran part of an axis of evil in 2002, then he invades the first country he called part of that axis. And people in this country can't understand why Iran would want a nuclear weapon. Maybe because the USA has nuclear weapons pointed in the direction of Iran every moment of the day.

If you were in the position of the Palestinians, would you fight with everything you had or would you just let Israel control you.

I think most Arab countries think the USA has done a lot of evil acts, and with some justification as I have pointed out. I always try to put myself in the other persons position before I condemn them for their actions.

Actually, rickg,

you seem ONLY to put yourself in the Iranian Regimes "position",

and the "position" of Other Regimes of "like mind",

You KNOW, the, "THEY are RIGHT and WE are WRONG", position.

rickg, fellow American, try something NEW,

the position of,

NOBODY or NO COUNTRY has a Perfect System, but,

THIS is MY Country,

and THIS is how WE do it.

Mork, what possible excuse did we have to overthrow the elected government of Iran. Sorry, but we were wrong and 26 years later we paid the price for that decision. Just think how much better off we would have been today had we allowed the elected government of Iran to continue: no Ayatollahs, no Ahmadinejad, no nuclear weapons.

Your right, no country is perfect, thats why we should mind our own business and stay out of other countries politics.

This is my country also Mork, and I have every right to disagree with some of the decisions that we have made.

You sound a lot like the "love it or leave it" crowd, sorry, but I believe in "love it and change it" for the better.

Rick,

Let me get this...you are defending Iran's right to having nuclear weapons. A country that suppresses it's own people, ran by a man who reinvents history? Yes, we put the Shah in, but there was a cultural revolution, and since then, they have been pretty much left alone. As GWB, I never bought into his program.

And are you implying that the US would use nuclear weapons on Iran? Or that Israel would? That would mean annihilation to Israel, too.

As for the Palestinians, this has nothing to do with that. But if you think that terrorism helps, just remember why the Israelis built those walls. It was because of suicide bombers on buses and cafes. Since the walls went up...nada. Did it help them to bomb those cafes and buses. I think not.

There is never a excuse for terrorism.

rickg,

I LOVE my country, the U.S.of A., MORE, MUCH MORE, than ANY other Country.

IF, hypothetically, GOD appeared before us, and SAID, "One System Stays and One System Leaves, and the CHOICE was MINE to make,

I would choose OUR SYSTEM.

IF, there is a WAR between US and THEM, and

If it is a Choice between US or THEM,

I CHOOSE US.

****

rickg, you talk as if you were an indolent Roman in your previous life, talking this EXACT same talk,

just before the "Barbarian" Conquest of Rome.

MY WORDS to MY Country, IS

STAY STRONG.

The Barbarians at the Gate are NOT BETTER.

rickg,

The Shah's FATHER, was Shah, before Reza Pahlevi became Shah.

WE, the WEST did NOT put Reza Pahlevi into power as the Shah,

he succeeded his Father, who had been the Shah before him,

since 1925.

exactly right, the USA seems to think that overthrowing an elected government (Iran-1953) will never result in backlash

Um, 9/11 happened 48 years after that, long before any of the hijackers was born. Also most of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, not Iran. The Iranians aren't Arabs. They don't even speak Arabic, but Farsi. It would be nearly as logical to blame 9/11 on the Crusades, or perhaps the Moors being kicked out of Spain 500 years ago.

Didn't the taliban blow up the Buddhas because they were symbols of another religion? Aren't people opposing the community center because it's a symbol of another religion?

If that were the case, then people would oppose mosques all over the United States. They are only opposed to THIS particular mosque, because it is too close to what has become a sacred place in the eyes of millions.

They are only opposed to THIS particular mosque, because it is too close to what has become a sacred place in the eyes of millions.

Too bad. You can get offended all you want, but that still doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to build there.

Terrorism destroyed the Twin Towers, not Islam, so why should anybody be offended by the building of a Mosque?

And I am still putting my money on most of you not giving a damn if it was a Church instead of a Mosque that was being built there.

If this PROPOSED Mosque is to be BUILT with Saudi Wahabbi FUNDS,

IT will NOT be BUILT!

IF American Muslims can subscribe the COST of the BUILDING,

they MAY build their Mosque.

HOWEVER, the Saudi Wahabbi Terrorists are the A$$WIPES that DESTROYED and KILLED,

and IF the Saudi Wahabbi's are SUPPLYING the Money to BUILD,

and therefore, OWN the MEGA-Mosque; they will ALSO own the Clerics and the Teachers,

then the Wahabbi FANATICS that KILLED our people, AND THEIR Wahabbi King,

can bend over, and, as Heels so aptly put it, "THEY CAN KISS MY AMERICAN A$$".

The Wahabbi's KILLED OUR PEOPLE,

There will be NO Wahabbi MEGA-Mosque.

Peaceful American Muslims are GOOD.

@!$%# the Murdering, fanatical Wahabbi's!!!

Anathema, I agree with a lot of what you say, however, I would be careful about putting America on top of the world as far as war and morality is concerned. I can't think of any other country that has been involved in as many military actions or has killed more people than the USA has in the last 70 years. You ask, shouldn't we be setting an example? The answer is hell yes we should be setting an example. We have hundreds of military bases all over the world, is this necessary, I think we should scale back are military involvement everywhere. Why do you think the founders were so against a large military, they saw the danger of a huge standing army. You can't justify spending all this money on the military, then not use it. So instead of trying to work things out diplomatically, you use your military. We have to get away from the mindset, that were the strongest so you better behave like we want you to behave.

Before WWII the USA was very reluctant to enter into any foreign war. It seems to me that after WWII we decided that we should spread our democracy all over the world, even if it meant using our military and intelligence capability to determine the outcome.

Hey, I agree with ya. :D

We're not on the top of the moral chain, but we ARE above the country where the terrorists came from when it comes to equal rights.

We worked hard for our civil rights and freedom...why should we go in reverse because of hatred?

I can't think of any other country that has been involved in as many military actions or has killed more people than the USA has in the last 70 years

Try the former Soviet Union, China, or Cambodia. Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

There were a couple hundred American citizens of the Muslim faith in those towers that died as well. The attack wasn't against religions in America, it was in retaliation for decades of the "American Way" of exploiting the people in the middle east, of us pitting them against each other, of arming them with high tech weapons of war to use and us inciting wars between them, toppling their governments and replacing them with evil corrupt dictators, it was about the UK and US treating the entire region like they were a sub-human species and exploiting them for their oil and riches. For us crapping on the entire region to support our lifestyles.

Oddly that a predominately Christian country - 10 Commandments and all, would be the largest purveyor of tools of death in the world and the hypocrisy of our God is better than your little dust God attitude yet with total disregard for human lives when it came to making a buck.

When is retaliation finally justified? When is "what goes around, comes around" going to click in the minds of many Americans?

Evil deeds shouldn't be countered with evil deeds. If you do take this action you are no better than the perpetrator. All that leads to is the destruction of mankind. Some of the US policies have indeed promoted intense hatred from other countries, mainly Muslim. No one wins.

You mean you're equating picketing a building with murdering 3,000 people?

The attack wasn't against religions in America, it was in retaliation for decades of the "American Way" of exploiting the people in the middle east, of us pitting them against each other, of arming them with high tech weapons of war to use and us inciting wars between them, toppling their governments and replacing them with evil corrupt dictators,

You know the motivation of every hijacker? Gee, you're good. Maybe you're right. Then again, maybe they were a bunch of educated young men who were despondent that they couldn't find jobs, so they turned to radical Islam. Or maybe some of them were just horny and couldn't wait to get to those 72 virgins. It would scarcely be the first time someone did something idiotic in the name of their religion. Buddhist monks have set themselves on fire. Fundamentalist Christians have handled venomous snakes.

exactly how many times have you read the qu'ran? because I have lost count of how many times that I have read it. and I never came across any passage that says it is my duty to convert others. One of the greatest sins in Islam is lying, I wont even bother describing the punishment that awaits the liar for it makes me cringe. However there is a passage that says their is no compulsion in religion. i often wonder how you can force someone to believe.

If you want to discuss duplicity and coercion talk about Christian missionaries going into other countries, Jehovah witnesses door to door approach, etc etc I don't recollect ever being proselytized by a Muslim. and yet as a female Muslim every time I set foot out the door I have people of every other faith coming up to me and telling me how I am being misguided.

By the way I am an American born Catholic turned protestant left the church for years than became a Muslim and I have never looked back.

The bible says you should kill everyone of other religions, enslave them for (i forget how many generations) and burn their cities.

But then again, the bible essentially is the koran, so it's hardly surprising that they're so similar. Luckily, most chrisitans don't seem to be taking it literally - then neither do most muslims.

Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/013-forced-conversion.htm

One among many...

tom's view from behind a blindfold -- do you even pretend to know what's going on in the world?

But then again, the bible essentially is the koran, so it's hardly surprising that they're so similar. Luckily, most chrisitans don't seem to be taking it literally - then neither do most muslims. ??

Really?? Are you serious?? If so, debating you seems pointless.

But then again, the bible essentially is the koran

Agreed. Same stories, many of the same sentiments.

so it's hardly surprising that they're so similar. Luckily, most chrisitans don't seem to be taking it literally - then neither do most muslims. ??

Well, one difference is that the West went through something called the Enlightenment, and unfortunately much of the Muslim world has yet to do so.

Wow...just wow.

What do you know about New Yorkers? You think that we all walk around hating Muslims? We don't. Check out how many Mosques there are in NYC. I think that you will be shocked. We have always lived here together in peace. This issue is about this particular mosque. It is not about Muslims, but the message it sends to the terrorists.

Do you live here? Probably not. So maybe you need to take a look at that site for your self.

It is not about Muslims, but the message it sends to the terrorists.

That we are not at war with Islam and we are not at war with Muslims?

That we don't confuse American Muslims with al-queda operatives and religious radicals?

That we won't compromise our values just because some wackos have done us harm?

That we can overcome our fears and prejudices, and seek an understanding of people that we are ignorant about?

That they don't own this mosque, and don't control or represent Islam?

That their inhuman tactics have not, and will never, compromise who we are or bring this country down?

Not what you wanted to hear huh?

We all understand that it was the WORLD trade center and not everyone who worked there was born in this country. Furthermore there are lots of Muslims who WERE born in this country. I know any African American Muslim probably has ancestors who were here centuries before mine. But so what? MOST victims of Muslim terror are fellow Muslims, as it happens. What is your point? There are better ways of honoring the innocent Muslims who died that day.